@van
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Hi John,
Timely question – I was just today looking at my 4-108M starter motor and thinking “ugh, that’s rusty, I wonder if I should be worried”. I think the rust is superficial, but must admit I have no confidence in that.
What should we do to protect it?
I’d be hesitant to drill the sump wall to allow liquids to drain into the bilge – that could include oils like diesel if you had a crack in a high pressure hose. Your bilge pumps would end up pumping the diesel overboard. We had just such a leak, and it was contained in the pan under the motor.
A related question – as we prepare to head off into remote areas of the S Pacific, should we be carrying a “spare” starter motor?
Van
Since you were motoring, it’s conceivable that the white metal bearing (bearing through which the prop shaft penetrates the hull to the transmission) may have opened up in such a way that it allowed water to flow in. Normally it’s adjusted to allow a drop of water every few seconds. If the nuts holding the stuffing box vibrated loose, I can imagine it letting in a stream of water that would eventually sink the boat.
Yes, this story sends a shiver down my spine and makes me want to go check on Rainshadow as soon as possible.
Van
An additional comment about the Monitor on Rainshadow. A primary issue was tensioning the control lines which run from the vane to the wheel in the cockpit. These need to be kept tight, but not too tight. However, because they are so long, 15 feet or so, you need to use low stretch line. We did, but not in a large enough diameter, so we had problems anyway.
To handle situations like this, Scanmar, who make the Monitor, sell a “center cockpit” line kit, with custom dyneema lines. We will be installing this before our next trip and hopefully these will eliminate the issues with stretch.
Lastly, there is an autopilot called the Pelagic, that mounts onto the Monitor, and uses an actuator to move the paddle – in other words, you take off the air paddle, and attach the Pelagic. You get a low power autopilot that uses an internal compass to steer. A friend of mine used one in a single handed race from San Francisco to Honolulu and he said it worked extremely well.
Van
I don’t recall the manual giving specific values.
The rule of thumb is intermediates are tensioned to 10% or so of breaking strain, and caps to 15%. The Caps on our boat are 7/32″ or about 6mm and and the Intermediates are 5/32″, 4mm. The breaking strains vary by manufacturer, but are about 2800 lbs and 5400 lbs respectively. (I got these from Ronstans web site).
So, you want about 280 lbs and 540 lbs.
Hi Richard, I’ve almost finished our drogue. I used Jordan’s suggested dimensions for a boat the size of the Nic 38. Here are the key points.
1. Connected to the aft topsides with custom chain plates and backing plates.
2. Design strength about 12,000 lbs breaking strength, a once in a lifetime event. Normally the peak forces will be <10% of this value.
3. A bridle (Y), about 20′ long on each side, made of amsteel.
4. A leader, about 75′ long, made of amsteel.
5. A primary drogue section of 50 yd containing 50 cones, breaking strain 12,000 lbs.
6. A secondary drogue section of 50 yd containing 54 cones, breaking strain 6000 lbs.
7. A final length of chain a few feet long with a 10 lb weight at the end.One advantage of chain plates vs using deck fittings or winches, is that the rode can have a thimble and eliminate chafe concerns. Anything going through chocks on deck will be subject to chafe.
I’ll write this up on our blog when I finish.
Hope this helps!
Van
We had the problem too, a few years ago, and were able to fix it. In our case, it was a fastener in the table top that became loose. I think we epoxied it back in place. Now we are very wary of leaning on it. It is only a matter of time before someone will fall on it again, so we plan to reinforce it.
Our idea is to attach a rectangular piece of plywood between the underside of the table, and the edge of the seat below it. We want to use bolts with knobs so that it can be easily removed. This will make it very strong fore and aft, but perhaps not help much athwartships. The idea needs some refinement.
An added benefit underway, is that the rectangle will act as a lee support for the berth. On our crossing from Seattle to Hawaii, it was rough enough that this berth was the only place I could sleep. We had a lee cloth, but I kept wishing there was a board there.
Am interested to hear if anyone has a good solution!
Van
Length from the bottom of the stick in inches, measured to closes 1/8 inch or so.
Imp gal = L inches
2 = 2.125
4 = 4
6 = 5.5
8 = 7.25
10 = 8.75
12 = 10.5
14 = 12.0
16 = 13.5
18 = 15.0
20 = 16.375
22 = 17.5
24 = 18.875
26 = 20.0
28 = 21.25
30 = 22.5
32 = 23.75
34 = 25.0
36 = 26.125
38 = 27.0Hope this helps! The overall length of the stick is 33.5 inches. Ours was broken in the past and epoxied together (it looks like epoxy).
Van
Interesting to read this Trevor, thanks for posting. This is a part of the engine we have not really had to deal with. The previous owner had to have the mixer removed and repaired to fix a hole. But the tube is original I expect.
Are you saying the Auzzies won’t let you use your existing propane stove? Is that because you are importing your boat, or are you just visiting?
We are currently in Hawaii and pondering our next voyages. Eventually, most paths lead to NZ/Aus. Our original installed stove obviously won’t pass muster!
Besides, I’d like to rebuild the galley. Not very convenient for use during a long passage. So very interested in what you learn.
VanHi Brian,
I rebuilt our rudder a few years ago on Rainshadow, described on our own blog here.
When we removed the rudder, it was clear the bronze cap had become free (unglued), but it was still in place. It was very worn (no longer circular) and there was a lot of play between the pin and the cap. The cap is supposed to be glued into the rudder – there is a plastic part that is in the rudder that the cap fits into. The bearing surface of the cap is flat.
I had the cap remade out of bronze (not sure what type of bronze, but the shop that made it – Port Townsend Foundry – probably used a high quality silicon bronze alloy.Brass is not a good choice because it corrodes quickly, and it is contact with the metal of the shoe (as I call it in the link, your footplate) which is a bronze from C&N. I glued it in with sikaflex.
The pin, built into the shoe, has a conical top surface that comes to a point, that I believe is intended to be the bearing surface. The 40 year old pin on Rainshadow did not seem to be too badly worn, and the shoe itself seemed fine after scraping off surface corrosion. So we did not replace it.
AFAIK, you do not need anything between the pin and the cap to reduce friction. I found nothing there. The small point on the pin makes a small area of contact with the cap, and also you can apply a lot of torque with the steering.
The fit with the new cap was close but not tight, and left no play in the rudder. It is still like that after 3 years – have not hauled out, but diving on the rudder it seemed fine. Before we fixed this, at fast sailing speeds we had a lot of vibration in the steering that you could feel at the wheel. This is gone now.
Van
We went with the light Dacron and are happy with it. We’re sailing in the tropics now, and dacron should last longer than nylon, and also as you note, allows use in slightly higher wind speeds. It is also more traditional looking than a flashy colored nylon!
One disadvantage of dacron is that it does not pack in a bag quite so easily.
Finally, I had an old “ChuteScoop” sock that had been used for an asymmetric we once had and I have set that up for the staysail. The trick is instead of having the scoop cover the sail from the head down like you would for a spinnaker, you have the scoop start at the tack, meaning that when the sail is deployed and sailing, the scoop is bundled up down at the tack by the windward chain plate. Then, to douse the sail, I just release the halyard and hold the bitter end in my hand keeping tension on it, walk forward to the sock, grab it and then walk back pulling the sock over the sail, letting down the halyard as needed. Of course, you could just use a rope on the mouth of the scoop and pull it aft so you would not have to walk forward and back.You might consider having a mizzen staysail made for you. They are very simple, light sails, so reasonably priced, we had Crusader Sails (in Dorset) make one for us for 325 GBP in 2014.
The nominal size per Camper and Nicholsons is Luff 23.50’ x Leach 20.50’ x Foot 23.50’ which is what we had made. I sometimes think the luff should be 1′ shorter, but am quite happy to have the extra sail area.
The staysail is a blast to sail, easy to raise and douse, and really helps make speed in light winds. We can use it from an apparent wind angle of around 80 degs, down to about 120 or 130.
We did have one problem this summer, when I did not pay enough attention to the lead of the sheet, which goes through a block on the end of the mizzen boom. The wind was around 12+ knots apparent (the upper limit for the sail) and I didn’t notice the sheet rested against a shroud – it chafed through, leading to quite a bit of excitement!We’re based in Seattle. We’ve not found off the shelf zincs to fit so we have had to get them custom made.
Look for a zinc plate (eg Fisheries Supply, 12″ x 1″ thick x 6″ wide). We had a shipwright cut these into bars 1.75″ wide to fit the width of the slots. To fit the bolts, have them drill one hole and one slot about 1″ long to make the fit easier. We also replaced the original bolts with longer ones to accept thicker zincs. BTW, shipwrights here charge way too much for shop time!
Note, we are also able to use a thicker zinc because we counter sink the bolt holes in the zinc to allow us to get the bolts and lock nuts on, and still have the thick plates. I wish we had put longer bolts in to avoid the need for the counter sink.
Hard to believe your plate lasted 6 years. Ours, made with thicker plate, last about 2 years. Our hull #126, can only take a 12″ long zinc, not 15″.
Good luck,
Van
Are you talking about the chain plates? In other words are these U-bolts where the shrouds attach? On the Nic 38, these “hairpin” rods go through the deck and meet a protrusion molded into the hull (we call it a knee).
If you are replacing these, you will likely need to have them custom made. They should not be too hard to make. The purpose of the plate above the deck is simply to act as a water barrier. The challenge will be getting the angle correct, but realistically (and looking at ours on s/v Rainshadow) the angle does not have to be perfect.
You should inspect all the hairpin chainplates – our boat is a similar age, and we found crevice corrosion, although not bad and we did not replace the rods.
You may want to see our writeup at
Yes, we roll too – especially when the frequency of the wavelets seems to be close to the resonant frequency of the boat.
We had similar luck reducing the rolling by taking a large plastic cutting board, about 20 x 30 inches, drilling holes in the 4 corners, and tying four lines through each hole so that the board could be supported horizontally from another line. Each of the four lines also went through the board down to a large lead weight (also about 15kg) about 2 or 3 feet below the board. Then this contraption was suspended from the end of the boom with the boom held as far out as possible using a preventer, and dangled into the water about 3 feet deep. Worked like a charm! But I do find the 15kg of lead a bit unwieldy – potential toe/finger smasher.
Thanks everyone who sent pictures (mostly via Marilyn). Some great pics there! I’ll sift through them over the next couple of weeks – we are due to set sail tomorrow for points north and west (British Columbia). I’m assuming if you sent them you dont mind me adding them to the Nic 38 manual, with appropriate acknowledgement of course.
If you want a copy of the Nic 38 manual in eReader format (.mobi) which can be read for instance on a Kindle, or any device with a Kindle app, then please let me know – you can email me at: v a n e d e n @ hotmail.com (minus the spaces of course).
Van
s/v Rainshadow currently at our home port:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.906494,-122.5866395,113m/data=!3m1!1e3Thanks Trevor! Nice pics. Do you have a version of the IMG_6631.jpg that has more pixels? I need at least 1000 pixels on the longest side. For this photo, that might be vertical when cropped.
And to anyone else with photos of their Nic 38 under sail, I’m still looking for more!
Cheers,
Van
PS, we are likely to be setting off for our summer cruise in about three weeks, after which we will be mostly offline.
Sorry to hear this – it’s something we can all relate to as we get older.
Best of luck selling Mary Kate. Hopefully this forum will be a good resource for potential buyers, lots of good information, and clearly a lot of dedicated, enthusiastic owners! And hopefully it will make it clear that the Nic 38 is a well built, blue sea ready boat, ready to take a person anywhere.
Van
Sorry so late to reply, have been busy with other things. The slot you describe is the same that I found on Rainshadow. However, it was not full of water – possibly it had been a while since we’d had rain and it had dried up. It did not occur to me to look for drain holes, although that would make a lot of sense. I wish I had thought of it.
I reused the wooden chocks, figuring if they had lasted 35 years, there was no need to replace them. The chocks mainly seemed necessary to prevent the mast foot from sliding fore and aft. However, they do not make a tight fit if I recall.
How is the corrosion on the mast foot? I was surprised that it was in pretty good shape on Rainshadow. Just superficial corrosion.
It seems like the drain holes in the mast itself are important to keep clear, perhaps an annual check is necessary. I enlarged them. The mast was full of what looked like bits of wood, but I think was bits of the polystyrene that they used inside the mast to stop the wiring from flopping about. I got out at least four cups (about a liter) of the stuff. The polystyrene is probably degrading slowly.
This reminds me of an “adventure” this summer. Had just finished a month on the hard in Port Townsend rebuilding the rudder, etc. and was setting off for our home port. Beautiful Pacific Northwest late Fall morning, crisp and sunny. Pulled into the marina there to fill up the tank for the winter. Opened the little port on top of the tank and used the ancient wooden stick to measure the fuel level. Calculated the amount we needed (leaving a little room for error) and asked the attendant for exactly 23 gallons (US). Left the little port open so I could check it after the fuel was in. Since I could not see the pump, I said, “can you watch the pump and shut it off at 23 gallons?” “Sure” she replied, “happy to do that!”. So I started fueling with my back to the pump and to her. After a long while, I had a sudden chill, and the image of diesel pouring into the main cabin flooded my mind. I turned around and looked at the attendant. She was meditating with the ducks at the far end of the dock, oblivious to the fuel pump. OMG. I shut off the nozzle and rushed down into the cabin. The diesel was within half an inch of overflowing. Not even one pint of room, not even one cup – maybe two teaspoons. Slowly, I screwed on the little cap, swearing I would never, ever trust anyone again, and would always, always screw that little puppy on tight at all times.
Hi Steve,
I used the same stuffing material that is used in the prop shaft stuffing box. 5/16″ teflon flax made by Western Pacific Trading. I believe I bought 2 feet at a cost of around $5. I think it made about six loops to fit around the rudder shaft, and I used five of them in the stuffing box.
Hope that helps!
Van
The previous owner of Rainshadow had the same problem and the only solution he had was to cut the sleeve off (a non-trivial task) to be able to lift the upper section of the box high enough to be able to get to the stuffing material.
In our recent rudder rebuild, we had Port Townsend Foundry make a coupler (like you might have on a prop shaft) to replace the sleeve. Much shorter hopefully solving the problem.
Details at http://svrainshadow.com/?p=1144
Van
We finished our rudder rebuild and you can read about it here.
Summary: we had a stainless steel rudder stock that showed signs of crevice corrosion, so we replaced it with an Aluminum Nickel Bronze one. Replaced all the foam, and rebuilt the body of the rudder. We also replaced the mild steel collar with a coupler custom built for us by Port Townsend Foundry.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. (See password protected member directory for my email address).
Van
