Ronar M Perkins diesel problems

[Moderator]

Trevor asked me to post this for him, as he is temporarily having login problems:

Quote:

Recently whilst throttling back, after a couple of hours of motoring, the engine on Ronar M died. I was able to restart again immediately but the same thing happened again a few days later. I phoned an engineer who asked me how recently I had changed the diesel filters (I had done so only 3 months ago). Nevertheless I checked them and found the primary filter absolutely choked with black gunge – clearly a case of diesel bug. I changed the filters again and bled the low pressure system. I then used the solenoid to turn over the engine to bleed the high pressure side at the injectors. Suddenly the solenoid button would not spring back, the engine fired up but the starter motor would not stop turning until I turned off the main battery switches. I had to fit a new solenoid but then all seemed to be well.

The next day the engine started ‘hunting’ (revving up several hundred revs with no change of the throttle setting) especially if I tried to go over 1500 rpm. Slowly the engine died on me. Soon I could do no more than 1000 rpm and eventually it died altogether and would not start. Luckily I was able to sail home until the wind died when a friendly member of my club towed Ronar to her mooring.

Suspecting filters once more choked with ‘bug’ I checked them again but found them clear. Trying to start up again, the new solenoid played up in the same way as the old one but a quick check with a multimeter showed it not to be faulty. Nevertheless the engine would not start.

I have come home now bringing the injectors with me for servicing.

Has anyone had similar problems and what did they do to solve them?

Thanks, Trevor

ps Ronar still has the original Perkins 4107

[Moderator]

We had a problem with the solenoid, which I describe below, but it makes me wonder whether your engine problems are unrelated to your solenoid problems. Let me describe our multi-faceted problems.

Earlier this spring, when attempting to start the engine, nothing happened. In time, Van traced it to a failed acuator in the solenoid, but he could still push the button to start the engine. After the engine had been running ~20 minutes, he noticed the alternator was still putting out unusually high current. He checked the voltage on the batteries, and realized the altnerator charging circuitry had failed and that the batteries were being cooked! (I believe he posted about this already). So, he proceeded to spend a few weeks replacing and rewiring the entire charging and starter system (and its greatly improved, I must say!) Were the failed solenoid and failed voltage regulator related? Don’t know. Oh, BTW – he also discovered during the repairs the alternator switch was going bad, and that the engine shutoff cable had nearly failed. Certainly those were not related. But we certainly had a cascading list of failures occuring all at once!

BTW – we looked everywhere for a solenoid with a push button switch on top. They are no longer available in the US, so we ended up using a standard starter solenoid from NAPA. Too bad, that push switch was a nice feature. If you found once again, Trevor, please let us know where.

Then, about a month later – the new solenoid failed in the way Trevor describes. It was a cold day, and the intent was not to start the engine so we had not used the glow plug (Van was testing the new starter key circuitry in fact). He turned the key, the solenoid engaged the starter and the starter motor started. He turned off the key, and the solenoid did not disengage so the starter motor kept running! He had to turn off the battery switch, just like Trevor did. Though it was easy to jump to the conclusion that the new key was wired incorrectly, he eventually traced the problem to a faulty solenoid accuator. About 1 out of every 10 times, it would stick. This was worrying, because if it did achieve starting the engine, we might not hear the still engaged starter motor and so it would probably get destroyed. I don’t know – can you hear the starter motor when the engine is running? We thought about rigging up a warning light to show if the solenoid acuator was engaged still – but in the end, we just got a replacement solenoid because it was still under warranty, and stopped thinking about it. NAPA said that on a rare occasion, that does happen with this solenoids, but they swear they are good quality parts….

So – my point is, maybe a gremlin is causing your solenoid, fuel system and engine to all have failure problems at the same time, but they are unrelated. It can be very confusing to troubleshoot when there are multiple points of failure. Keep an open mind when you are working on this.

[Alexina]

Hi

I do not have much experience with the Perkins 4107 or 8, Alexina has a “Volvo Perkins”. having said that the symptoms described seem reminscent of problems I experienced years ago with an old diesel Landrover. I eventually traced it down to a faulty lift pump with a tiny hole in the diaphragm. Hope this helps.

Peter

[michael bennett]

I feel confident to say it is a diesel problem, maybe some gung still in a line possibly. More likely from the symptoms to be air in the diesel, possibly unseated filter seals or not tighttened correctly.
I wouls start at the begining, reseat each filter, make sure clean and tight, bleed and bleed again both the low and high pressure sides, low at the final engine filter, and high at the distributor pump.
Good luck not required, just regular maintenance, we are all guilty of that so you are not alone.
One more thing, remove the air filter and make sure it is clean the engine likes to breath to.

[Moderator]

I am posting for Arild, who also is temporarily having login problems: Arild sent this to me via email:

Quote:

I don’t think I can give any advise on the diesel problem, but I would like to comment on the starter engine not disengaging after the Perkins has started.

Our 1974 model 4.108 had this happen once or twice two years ago. I removed the starter engine and found black rubber particles which may have prevented the starter from retracting from the flywheel. A year later I understood the rubber particles came from the drive bushings between the flywheel and the gear and replaced these.

Arild

[Moderator]

After we had the “starter not disengaging problem” as described above – to troubleshoot it, we disconnected the cable from the solenoid to the starter. Then we turned the key and listened for the solenoid click on and off. That’s when we learned that the solenoid problem was intermitant; sometimes it did not click to indicate the solenoid disengaged after the key was released. A sharp whack with a screwdriver would get it to disengage. So our problem was clearly the solenoid and an electrical problem.
It sounds like Arild’s problem was a mechanical problem. Presumably, in the case of the mechanical problem, the solution is to shut off the diesel, rather than in the electrical problem where the solution is to shut off the battery.

[michael bennett]

Have you checked the diesel and bled?

[Richard Garlant]

Sorry to hear about the engine problems.
First check the obvious, no air being drawn into the system and the delivery pump is not leaking back through the return valves. A lift pump has a gauze filter inside the dome. This is often forgotten. Take the nut off the top and clean with some diesel, make sure the gasket (flat o ring under the dome) is not out of place when you put it back as she will draw air. Also check that the bolt or ring or copper washer is intact. To check the lift pump valve seating you can take the pump off and hold you thumb on the pressure side if pressure dies when you stroke the pump lever you have a diagnosis of valve failure if the pressure under your thumb drops off rapidly. The lift pump lever works off a cam which pushes the pump lever up and down. (sometimes if this lever is on top of the cam you may have difficulty bleeding the motor at the lift pump does not achieve full flow stroke, just turn the motor over a couple of degrees to release the lever from tdc)
The most likely cause of any diesel engine hunting however is the governor in the injector pump. The diesel governor has a centrifugal weight which is counterbalanced by linkages and springs. I would check to see that all ball and socket fittings externally are sound and have no play.
For an engine to die at low rpm it is either fuel starvation from dirty filters or air in the suction side, you will never introduce air after the lift pump as this is the pressurised side.
For an engine to die down at low rpm if the fuel system is the problem (not compression related issues) it is fuel starvation, air in the diesel, low idle setting or worn pump injector pump.
Incidentally a diesel pump has two form of lubrication, one being the engine oil which lubricates the driver gear to the timing gear and the other is the diesel itself which keeps all the parts that control flow such as the metering valve cool and not sticking. (If you find your engine oil level rising its likely that the seal between the two has worn). Sometimes if the metering valve gets gummed you may find the engine takes off at an alarming rate or idles very high. It’s very important to keep fuel clean.
To diagnose internal pump linkage problems first disconnect the throttle cable from the throttle arm on the pump. Make sure all body parts and clothing are out of harms way. Start the motor and physically hold the linkage as steady as you can (I have used vice grips before on various motors and they do the trick). Try various levels of rpm if the problem persists the pump is the likely cause.
To test for fault injectors keep the engine running at idle and crack off the injector pipe to the injectors in turn, you will soon see which one does not make much difference.

All the best

Richard

[Ronar M]

Hi All, thanks for all the good advice. I am making progress although the engine is not running yet. The low pressure lift pump was the problem (exacerbated by an ancient pump having to drag diesel through blocked filters). Anyway I happened to have a service kit on board – there when I bought the boat – and this now works fine. However, I have also had the injectors serviced and await delivery tomorrow of the copper washers which go beneath then to seat them down. I am also having some new studs made and new nuts which hold the injectors in as the old ones had little thread left (rusted away;some were rusted down to half their original diameter). Hopefully with all this pampering the old 4107 will fire up again. Will keep you posted. Cheers, Trevor

[michael bennett]

One of the not so usual culprits, and thanks to Richard many more possibilities also.
Generally speaking if you provide clean diesel, to clean filters, and the lift pump works, then air is the most common of faults which created the symptoms you experienced, hunting as it cannot burn air, non start because of air, hope all goes well from now on.

[Happy Dolphin]

for all of us break into fuel supply just before injector pump (pipe furthest from 3 mounting studs)fit a T piece and then put a motorcycle vacume/presure gauge to the T branch
under normal conditions it should read 4lbs positive presure any less and this indicates pump or blockage problems on a filtre requiring replacement a gradual drop 2 to 8 inch negative will be evident on a faulty pump it can fluctuate i have used these on my boats and landrovers for years and saves tons on unesasary filtre changes and warns in advance of dirty and or blocked system

[Ronar M]

Hi All

Good news. The old 4107 is going again. I got the starter motor serviced. The solenoid problem had been caused by a duff bearing which meant it had to draw too much power which partially melted the solenoid contacts and stuck them together. The bearings have been rebushed, the commutator skimmed and new brushes fitted. With the starter back on and a new solenoid there have been no more problems.
The engine still would not go until we discovered a separate bleed screw on the governor (on top of the injector pump). With this free of air she started up and sounded a sweet as a nut. Cheers, Trevor (a happier man)

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